Auto tune dummy here, got a question... - Honda RC51 Forum : RC51 Motorcycle Forums
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post #1 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-11-2016, 05:30 PM Thread Starter
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Auto tune dummy here, got a question...

So I've got the auto tune of course paired with the PCV on my sp2, my question is simple and hopefully easy to answer. I switched my pipes up so of course I'm going to activate the auto tune. My question is should I start with a zero map? Or leave the map I had loaded and let the auto tune do it's thing?

The way I did it before was I fiddled with a few maps till I found something that ran good then I activated the auto tune and rode the bike several times for a half hour or so at a brisk pace each time saving the changes it made. Bike ran great, I know you can dig in and adjust the cells fine tune it and what not I just don't particularly understand that and don't wanna risk making a detrimental change. Any help is appreciated.

-Brian
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post #2 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-11-2016, 07:21 PM
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I would go with the last known good map. Leave the map and let it do its thing
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post #3 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-11-2016, 08:58 PM Thread Starter
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Thanks appreciate ya
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post #4 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-13-2016, 03:31 AM
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I'll agree with James to just use what you have, but for a little more in-depth answer, both a current map or zero map will work just fine. The zero map might take a bit longer to build up however from my experience, a zero to basic map can be built fairly quickly from short rides of 20 min. This is assuming you have the trims set to adjust by +20% -20%.

The current map will become drastically different after you adjust a few trims and this is why I say it doesn't really matter. Either way you're basically building it from scratch.

One piece of advice that many will scoff at, is to set your 0% to 14.2 - 14.7. I personally recommend closer to 14.2. It will help big time with smooth rollons. Below 2500 might go super rich though so keep an eye on those cells and set the afr to 0 if it keeps dumping fuel. Above 2500 the bike has enough exhaust flow so you should be good. Like I said, it isn't a common piece of advice, take it with a grain of salt, disclaimers blah blah blah but I can say from experience it did wonders for my bike.
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post #5 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-13-2016, 11:18 AM
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From what I learned from dealing with a PCV on my ex-VFR800, don't use a zero map.
That essentially disables autotune.

You must load a base map with some default value other than zero (except for the indicated rev ranges where zero must stay) for autotune to start calculating and storing difference values to update the running map.
This is not well defined in the user guide.

I had started with a zero map installed on my PCV and it never calculated any differences in over a month of riding.

I contacted Power Commander, who then stated I had to have values other than "0" (in designated rev ranges) to enable autotune. The closer to ideal, the less time autotune would take to complete.
Once I did that, I was able to then see corrective values in the autotune table.

For me personally, I found autotune to be a waste of time and money.
I should have just installed the PCV and had it dyno'd.

If anyone needs an AT-200 (single O2 sensor) module, I have a used one in good condition, and a new in box (NIB) AT-200 for sale.
The used was off my VFR800 and the new one was for my FZ1 (both bikes gone).
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post #6 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-13-2016, 11:57 AM
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From what I learned from dealing with a PCV on my ex-VFR800, don't use a zero map. That essentially disables autotune.
You're confusing a zero base map with a zero afr map.

If you zero the afr map, yes, it disables autotune. The base map doesn't matter; it can have anything in it, including zero values.

When the base map has zero, it simply doesn't add or remove fuel, it passes along whatever stock would, as if the PCV wasn't even hooked up.

UPDATE: And after re-reading your post, something sounds amiss either with the process or the PCV/AT. The base map should not affect how the AT fundamentally works. Maybe it was a firmware issue?

I've started with a zero base map at least 3 times (due to various issues) and it has always built a map.

I was helping a friend with his gsxr motor the other day, started with a zero base map and it built the map. Something on your setup doesn't sound right.
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Last edited by philsward; 10-13-2016 at 12:05 PM.
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post #7 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-13-2016, 07:57 PM
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Since you have to install a map of some sort to have the PCV begin working, I downloaded a zero map from Power Commander and loaded it.
The map did have zero values in the table, so the autotune unit never bothered updating it's table.
When I went in and padded values into the cells, then autotune began padding it's table.
So it dounds like a little bit of one issue, a little bit of another.
I let autotune do its thing for a while to try and derive good settings, but I felt a dyno session for the price of the autotune and time spent with it would have money better spent.
It was an interesting learning experience.
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post #8 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-13-2016, 10:44 PM
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Others are right, A zero table for fueling is fine and it will change when the AFR table is set up properly. The AFR table tells the AT what to do; zero means nothing. And Dynojet won't send a base zero map with any AFR values since that depends on many variables such as bike, purpose, etc. It is up to the owner to determine what AFR values they want for their bike for a custom map.

AT is superior to a dyno in my experience for sportbikes. The significant ram air effect in real life is maximized with the RC51 to boot. I also like the precision of being able to build a custom 6 gear fuel map for the bike.

The issue is the mid rpm interference of the PCV on the RC51. This is bad. I did the work-around of using a PCIII to filter out the issue and I like what I see with the PCV and AT and what it is capable of without the interference issue.

Last edited by kwtoxman; 10-13-2016 at 11:07 PM.
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post #9 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-14-2016, 11:31 AM
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I have made back to back maps with both the AutoTune and the Dyno on the same bikes in same conditions several times now and I have found absolutely zero evidence that indicates one is better than the other for real world tuning of ram-air effect. It simply does not make a difference as the maps end up looking almost identical with most cells no more than one value different.

As long as you maintain the engine temp on the dyno the same as it is in real world riding conditions then the maps end up being the same.
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post #10 of 13 (permalink) Old 10-14-2016, 01:14 PM
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YMMV. We have different opinions LDH, no big deal.

SR tested for hp difference from simulated ram air on a dyno and showed pretty significant gains for ram air bikes. This means fueling for ram air effect is important, which dyno mapping does not account for. I personally find that more significant than other results reported from less rigourous testing.

I also ride with AT on most of the time, which you don't do or consider beneficial either. I personally prefer to use it to maximize the engine's potential all the time. The O2 sensors are designed to last over 100k miles in use and are under $100. It gives me optimal fueling all the time and accounts for the large outdoor temperature swings (up to 50F differences) I experience over a riding season. I see significant trim values through a season indicative of it making a significant difference.

Last edited by kwtoxman; 10-14-2016 at 01:26 PM.
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